![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
amand_r1. Sometimes when your kid is doing an overnighter at her grandparents, you go to bed at 3 and wake up at 2:43. And then IT IS TIME FOR BIB FORTUNA.
2. So I dredged up some old issues that I have with fandom last night and they made me depressed and worried. Why do I do that to myself? Bah.
3. Then I had a dream that I was trying to...save some of my old CDs or something, and someone told me that what I was doing wouldn't preserve them, and I scoffed at them, and then I ended breaking them, and I should have fit them back together, but they had cooled like bent shrinkydinks in addition to being broken. I cannot help but worry that my brain is telling me something about what dredges up number 2. Hrm.
4. Hair: cut thyself. Accio haircut. Hrm.
5. Snow. Uh huh.
6. So a lot of you read the RPF yesterday, and a lot of you commented, which is awesome. There was some general…amusement and also wondering what the subjects themselves thought (and genuine concern that they were aware of this). So I'll inform the worried that yes, they saw it before you did, in a locked post right below yours, in which we had a discussion about what it was like. I have been told that I can share what they had to say (edited to cut certain things that are too personal for you. sorry! :P)
Nick said:
I LOVE THE STORY!
Hmm. It's funny actually because I read it and it's very much sorting through "yeah I'd do that," and "no, I wouldn't do that," and "no it's not like that" and "shit, are you watching us?" So there is a definite mixture of things there that portray us and our interactions and motives and stuff accurately, if you will, in a "I can see myself do that" way and there is totally things that make me go, "C would never do that!"
It's definitely a construction of me, I think, I mean, actually yeah, a construction based on public image that is accessible to you, based on my behavior in emails and whatnot, the broadcast me, more than it is based on "me in the actual situation" (Dude, I would NEVER run ... that is so undignified) and as such it is a fictional me and so the parts that really work are the, for example, email communication where I'm like "Yeah, that's exactly like it" and the parts that drift away further are the moments no one is privy to that are more between C and me. They are good guesses at it, given what we show in the public, but they are off enough to really ... be fiction.
I LIKE THAT PERSON YOU WROTE! Haha. I'd do him. He's sexy.
It's ... actually it's a very POSITIVE portrayal. I never thought about that before, but RPF (when done with no weird intent) is really highlighting the positive things about a person, rather than the rotten little thoughts we all have at times. As if we can't attribute or don't want to attribute those things to a person we write about.
Yknow, when writing Barrowman, I'm sure he has shit days and I'm sure he has times when he's being an ass and being unfair and being downright mean because he's in a mood and fuck the world, but we wouldn't portray that, I don't think, and huh ... yeah, no, it strikes me here how positive RPF portrayal is and I don't think it's the exception here, actually, because it's this experiment, but I think that we tend to do it in general.
Now I'm actually curious how I'd feel if I was given a more negative role or if C was, in one of the break-up-with-SO-to-be-with-X kind of way, if that would make me feel weirded out or anything.
But this doesn't. It's fun, it's certainly fiction especially in those moments away from yknow anything communicated in emails and stuff, in the inner narrative to a certain extent.
Hmm. That was my gut reaction, anything else specifically you wanna hear?
LOL maybe I'm just all conceited and like to read about myself, oh noes.
Amanda's thoughts on that reaction:
HAHAAAHAHAH TO BE HONEST I HAD A FEW THOUGHTS.
1. Because I was with your narration, I had to filter C through you and I wondered about her marginalisation, then I realised that if she was a dude then it wouldn't matter LOL That's something only C can answer, no wait, as the reader, you are entitled to your opinion on that.
2. It was interesting the level to which "not pissing you guys off" came into play, a factor that I don't consider when I write RPF for real, and I wonder how much of that flavoured that. Actually it didn't like, change my portrayals of you, because this was something that I was interested in, this moment, and I didn't have to make you into shits for it to be good. But I might have stretched out that imaginary sex scene.
3. I was also amused, right around the part where I mention myself plying you with cornish pasties, that I had no problem stretching the truth about what really happened, and while I thought "Is that a lie? he knows I didn't ply him with cornish pasties", then I was like, "It's not him" and then I was like, "Wow, not it really is fiction."
4. Speaking of which, you know this isn't really a novel idea. This is just fiction, and people have been writing real people into their novels for ages. The difference comes in the...in the what? The intention? The portrayal? Like if I wrote you into a novel and changed the name, but it was recognisibly you, wouldn't that be RPF? Would it be any...less squicky? Also, it's not you, as you have pointed out repeatedly and with much delight.
5. And all of this serves to prove my point. Sort of.
6. Also, I poked fun at you deliberately like you and I poke fun at our RPS characters several times. I'm reminded of you joke about Gareth living in a cardboard box in Newport. In that very spirit I made my German gepurchase(d) joke. I should have put something about Shark Attack III in there. also, your gracelessness when you spilled the latte. I MOCK BECAUSE I CARE.
7. Anyway, it was a fun exercise, and I had to wrap it up in a bow, you know, so you got a happy airport kiss.
Wait, more while I'M THINKING ABOUT IT.
8. Do you find...okay, when I was writing (and I do this with fictional characters too, but it's different and I'll get to that) I realised that there were just...things I didn't know, and I filled them in with guesses, like I do with RPF. And they were legion, these little things. Like knowing all I know about you and the Barrowfacts doesn't mask the fact that I didn't know how you would check your watch.
See with a fictive character, I make this shit up because it doesn't matter, something so small, unless it's significant in the show/book. And also because a fictive construction, it's not a fleshed out person. Like, we never saw Ianto eat breakfast. So we have no idea what he eats for breakfast and how he does it. Ianto has literally never eaten breakfast in the canon. Ever. (Then you could argue that Ianto would have never eaten breakfast anyway because it's GDL eatng breakfast pretending…blah blah blah. I hate your Wheatabix, Shut up.). So I have to add that, and I made it up.
But you DO eat breakfast, or have eaten breakfast, so when I make it up, because that's a gap in my knowledge, there's actually something to get wrong.
So yeah, I guess in RPF there's things to get wrong, big fucking surprise (the tarp!), but there's also things to ALWAYS get wrong (I don't know how JB wanks and I don't want to know.). And at that point is where I say the fictive element of RPF begins and sets apart the celebrity construction from the real flesh and blood person (wanking in Sully).
PS: YOU RUN IF I MAKE YOU RUN, BITCH.
Carolyn's reaction:
Oh I think you did a marvelous job here Nick capturing my impressions too. Mandr, I love it too! Quite a bit. I love this Nick of yours. I admit to little glisteny eyelashes at the moment. Seriously. (such a tender boy! Nick, do you have those romanticy thoughts...by any chance? GRIN.)
I agree with Nick and I was thinking about this--I read the first part at home, pondered it on the way to work, and also came up with the 'this is Nick and me but it isn't' thoughts. Yes, you do capture those things you know about--they bounce out at me and make me laugh, make me think oh yeah definitely, definitely, and other things, the private things, the little ways we have of doing things (such as I never, ever call Nick. Ever. He ALWAYS calls me--but you don't know that) are still hidden away, only known by us. The things no one else can have are often such little things, that one wouldn't even think that anyone else would be interested, but are part of us, what makes up our relationship, what keeps our private lives private and untouchable. Absolutely no doubt in my mind that we will never, ever be privy to the true JB/SG relationship and how it works--no way, that's just not ever going to happen, no matter how much JB chooses to share. There will always be those little things.
It was really bizarre and yet warming to read this. I loved it, loved how you see Nick, even though for me, this is really probably only about 75% accurate (and I give you that much because you have spent so much time with him, know him well, have dealt with him in happy and tough times so have seen a broad range of his emotions--an advantage none of us have with JB/SG/GDL/etc). But what isn't, that you come up with, makes it into an enjoyable fictional story. I can see Nick in this, but it isn't completely him. My character is farther away from accurate, but of course not being in her POV (and having only the communications you and I have had to go by which one could say would be equivalent to what we know of JB only through what he has put out there) there is no way you can completely create a spot-on me.
To which Amanda replied:
haahahahahah SEE THERE ARE THINGS.
Like the phone thing. I thought I remembered that but I NEEDED DRAMA, C. I NEEDED DRAMA.
You confirm things that I pretty much suspected, and I had to admit that there are a lot of things that I know about you (about you both) that I wouldn't put in a fic, because they are more private and not things that you would glean from an lj post etc (that was my goal, to stay away from things that we wouldn't have access to in celebrity's lives, no matter how much they break the barrier). As it turns out, I know more about you in...private ways than public, almost, and I would never betray those things for the sake of an RPF experiment. :D
It is weird, because the people who speak in this even in my head don't have your voices. They remind me of ...well some other people that resemble you two.
A few additional things that were said:
Carolyn: Seriously! I wonder though if this fic will convince Nick to not take British Airways. LOL.
Amanda: It was interesting to me to do, and most importantly, I don't think that I really even displayed what all I know or think about you two in general. Like I wouldn't want to have a person look at this and think, "This is what amand-r thinks of c and nick" because that's not really it, you know? I feel like I'm making a lot of excuses, actually, and I don't mean to. It feels awkward. Like I didn't feel awkward until I started talking about it with you, and now I do. But only in this post. I'm not awkward in emails. Weird.
And then his conversation:
Amanda: I guess then, the ONE reservation I have about writing any RPS (aside from the deep sigh that I give when people say, "Why don't you just write original characters?") is the google factor, in which technically, people who know the subject of the rpf could find it, or the subject themselves could find it. But that's less of a creative issue and more of an audience issue. Then again, considering the editing I did knowing who my audience was this time, maybe it's not completely out of the realm of relevancy.
Nick:I did wonder how much my being okay with it is KNOWING it is fiction, and know there is no malicious intent etc because I AM PART OF THIS CULTURE/SCENE. And that when someone randomly googles himself and shit, that the "This creeps me out" comes from them not quite understanding how this area of fiction works, how fanfic works, what it is and isn't. Like, they only see their name splurged over the pages and go wtf is shit? is this person insane? That's my theory anyway, but then ... I'd think people would be able to educate themselves before jumping to weirdo conclusions
Amanda: Which then proves my point that sometimes people need to close their eyes. Like, I believe this is much like net nanny or other things: the universe should be rated 'Adult', with a small 'Children' section, and adult should filter accordingly. The default setting of the universe is not 'Children' (HEAR ME AUSTRALIA?). So the responsibility of filtering should be on the part of the subject, a concept which I realise as I type sounds a lot like blaming the victim. And it would be IF SOMEONE WERE ACTUALLY BEING VICTIMISED. Sometimes we perceive victims where there are none.
LASTLY, PROOF THAT WRITING IS AN INTUITION OF HUMAN BEHAVIOUR—
Carolyn: I laughed at this: "Hold on, I have to pay for this stuff." PEGGED! I am ALWAYS telling him to hold on, and he hates it. :) Did he tell you?
Amanda: OMG I HAD NO IDEA ABOUT THAT. HAAHAHAHAH There's an old adage about a monkey at a typewriter eventually coming to Shakespeare, right?
Jeffrey Jones: ...Well. There you have it.
*Emperoresque flounce*
2. So I dredged up some old issues that I have with fandom last night and they made me depressed and worried. Why do I do that to myself? Bah.
3. Then I had a dream that I was trying to...save some of my old CDs or something, and someone told me that what I was doing wouldn't preserve them, and I scoffed at them, and then I ended breaking them, and I should have fit them back together, but they had cooled like bent shrinkydinks in addition to being broken. I cannot help but worry that my brain is telling me something about what dredges up number 2. Hrm.
4. Hair: cut thyself. Accio haircut. Hrm.
5. Snow. Uh huh.
6. So a lot of you read the RPF yesterday, and a lot of you commented, which is awesome. There was some general…amusement and also wondering what the subjects themselves thought (and genuine concern that they were aware of this). So I'll inform the worried that yes, they saw it before you did, in a locked post right below yours, in which we had a discussion about what it was like. I have been told that I can share what they had to say (edited to cut certain things that are too personal for you. sorry! :P)
Nick said:
I LOVE THE STORY!
Hmm. It's funny actually because I read it and it's very much sorting through "yeah I'd do that," and "no, I wouldn't do that," and "no it's not like that" and "shit, are you watching us?" So there is a definite mixture of things there that portray us and our interactions and motives and stuff accurately, if you will, in a "I can see myself do that" way and there is totally things that make me go, "C would never do that!"
It's definitely a construction of me, I think, I mean, actually yeah, a construction based on public image that is accessible to you, based on my behavior in emails and whatnot, the broadcast me, more than it is based on "me in the actual situation" (Dude, I would NEVER run ... that is so undignified) and as such it is a fictional me and so the parts that really work are the, for example, email communication where I'm like "Yeah, that's exactly like it" and the parts that drift away further are the moments no one is privy to that are more between C and me. They are good guesses at it, given what we show in the public, but they are off enough to really ... be fiction.
I LIKE THAT PERSON YOU WROTE! Haha. I'd do him. He's sexy.
It's ... actually it's a very POSITIVE portrayal. I never thought about that before, but RPF (when done with no weird intent) is really highlighting the positive things about a person, rather than the rotten little thoughts we all have at times. As if we can't attribute or don't want to attribute those things to a person we write about.
Yknow, when writing Barrowman, I'm sure he has shit days and I'm sure he has times when he's being an ass and being unfair and being downright mean because he's in a mood and fuck the world, but we wouldn't portray that, I don't think, and huh ... yeah, no, it strikes me here how positive RPF portrayal is and I don't think it's the exception here, actually, because it's this experiment, but I think that we tend to do it in general.
Now I'm actually curious how I'd feel if I was given a more negative role or if C was, in one of the break-up-with-SO-to-be-with-X kind of way, if that would make me feel weirded out or anything.
But this doesn't. It's fun, it's certainly fiction especially in those moments away from yknow anything communicated in emails and stuff, in the inner narrative to a certain extent.
Hmm. That was my gut reaction, anything else specifically you wanna hear?
LOL maybe I'm just all conceited and like to read about myself, oh noes.
Amanda's thoughts on that reaction:
HAHAAAHAHAH TO BE HONEST I HAD A FEW THOUGHTS.
1. Because I was with your narration, I had to filter C through you and I wondered about her marginalisation, then I realised that if she was a dude then it wouldn't matter LOL That's something only C can answer, no wait, as the reader, you are entitled to your opinion on that.
2. It was interesting the level to which "not pissing you guys off" came into play, a factor that I don't consider when I write RPF for real, and I wonder how much of that flavoured that. Actually it didn't like, change my portrayals of you, because this was something that I was interested in, this moment, and I didn't have to make you into shits for it to be good. But I might have stretched out that imaginary sex scene.
3. I was also amused, right around the part where I mention myself plying you with cornish pasties, that I had no problem stretching the truth about what really happened, and while I thought "Is that a lie? he knows I didn't ply him with cornish pasties", then I was like, "It's not him" and then I was like, "Wow, not it really is fiction."
4. Speaking of which, you know this isn't really a novel idea. This is just fiction, and people have been writing real people into their novels for ages. The difference comes in the...in the what? The intention? The portrayal? Like if I wrote you into a novel and changed the name, but it was recognisibly you, wouldn't that be RPF? Would it be any...less squicky? Also, it's not you, as you have pointed out repeatedly and with much delight.
5. And all of this serves to prove my point. Sort of.
6. Also, I poked fun at you deliberately like you and I poke fun at our RPS characters several times. I'm reminded of you joke about Gareth living in a cardboard box in Newport. In that very spirit I made my German gepurchase(d) joke. I should have put something about Shark Attack III in there. also, your gracelessness when you spilled the latte. I MOCK BECAUSE I CARE.
7. Anyway, it was a fun exercise, and I had to wrap it up in a bow, you know, so you got a happy airport kiss.
Wait, more while I'M THINKING ABOUT IT.
8. Do you find...okay, when I was writing (and I do this with fictional characters too, but it's different and I'll get to that) I realised that there were just...things I didn't know, and I filled them in with guesses, like I do with RPF. And they were legion, these little things. Like knowing all I know about you and the Barrowfacts doesn't mask the fact that I didn't know how you would check your watch.
See with a fictive character, I make this shit up because it doesn't matter, something so small, unless it's significant in the show/book. And also because a fictive construction, it's not a fleshed out person. Like, we never saw Ianto eat breakfast. So we have no idea what he eats for breakfast and how he does it. Ianto has literally never eaten breakfast in the canon. Ever. (Then you could argue that Ianto would have never eaten breakfast anyway because it's GDL eatng breakfast pretending…blah blah blah. I hate your Wheatabix, Shut up.). So I have to add that, and I made it up.
But you DO eat breakfast, or have eaten breakfast, so when I make it up, because that's a gap in my knowledge, there's actually something to get wrong.
So yeah, I guess in RPF there's things to get wrong, big fucking surprise (the tarp!), but there's also things to ALWAYS get wrong (I don't know how JB wanks and I don't want to know.). And at that point is where I say the fictive element of RPF begins and sets apart the celebrity construction from the real flesh and blood person (wanking in Sully).
PS: YOU RUN IF I MAKE YOU RUN, BITCH.
Carolyn's reaction:
Oh I think you did a marvelous job here Nick capturing my impressions too. Mandr, I love it too! Quite a bit. I love this Nick of yours. I admit to little glisteny eyelashes at the moment. Seriously. (such a tender boy! Nick, do you have those romanticy thoughts...by any chance? GRIN.)
I agree with Nick and I was thinking about this--I read the first part at home, pondered it on the way to work, and also came up with the 'this is Nick and me but it isn't' thoughts. Yes, you do capture those things you know about--they bounce out at me and make me laugh, make me think oh yeah definitely, definitely, and other things, the private things, the little ways we have of doing things (such as I never, ever call Nick. Ever. He ALWAYS calls me--but you don't know that) are still hidden away, only known by us. The things no one else can have are often such little things, that one wouldn't even think that anyone else would be interested, but are part of us, what makes up our relationship, what keeps our private lives private and untouchable. Absolutely no doubt in my mind that we will never, ever be privy to the true JB/SG relationship and how it works--no way, that's just not ever going to happen, no matter how much JB chooses to share. There will always be those little things.
It was really bizarre and yet warming to read this. I loved it, loved how you see Nick, even though for me, this is really probably only about 75% accurate (and I give you that much because you have spent so much time with him, know him well, have dealt with him in happy and tough times so have seen a broad range of his emotions--an advantage none of us have with JB/SG/GDL/etc). But what isn't, that you come up with, makes it into an enjoyable fictional story. I can see Nick in this, but it isn't completely him. My character is farther away from accurate, but of course not being in her POV (and having only the communications you and I have had to go by which one could say would be equivalent to what we know of JB only through what he has put out there) there is no way you can completely create a spot-on me.
To which Amanda replied:
haahahahahah SEE THERE ARE THINGS.
Like the phone thing. I thought I remembered that but I NEEDED DRAMA, C. I NEEDED DRAMA.
You confirm things that I pretty much suspected, and I had to admit that there are a lot of things that I know about you (about you both) that I wouldn't put in a fic, because they are more private and not things that you would glean from an lj post etc (that was my goal, to stay away from things that we wouldn't have access to in celebrity's lives, no matter how much they break the barrier). As it turns out, I know more about you in...private ways than public, almost, and I would never betray those things for the sake of an RPF experiment. :D
It is weird, because the people who speak in this even in my head don't have your voices. They remind me of ...well some other people that resemble you two.
A few additional things that were said:
Carolyn: Seriously! I wonder though if this fic will convince Nick to not take British Airways. LOL.
Amanda: It was interesting to me to do, and most importantly, I don't think that I really even displayed what all I know or think about you two in general. Like I wouldn't want to have a person look at this and think, "This is what amand-r thinks of c and nick" because that's not really it, you know? I feel like I'm making a lot of excuses, actually, and I don't mean to. It feels awkward. Like I didn't feel awkward until I started talking about it with you, and now I do. But only in this post. I'm not awkward in emails. Weird.
And then his conversation:
Amanda: I guess then, the ONE reservation I have about writing any RPS (aside from the deep sigh that I give when people say, "Why don't you just write original characters?") is the google factor, in which technically, people who know the subject of the rpf could find it, or the subject themselves could find it. But that's less of a creative issue and more of an audience issue. Then again, considering the editing I did knowing who my audience was this time, maybe it's not completely out of the realm of relevancy.
Nick:I did wonder how much my being okay with it is KNOWING it is fiction, and know there is no malicious intent etc because I AM PART OF THIS CULTURE/SCENE. And that when someone randomly googles himself and shit, that the "This creeps me out" comes from them not quite understanding how this area of fiction works, how fanfic works, what it is and isn't. Like, they only see their name splurged over the pages and go wtf is shit? is this person insane? That's my theory anyway, but then ... I'd think people would be able to educate themselves before jumping to weirdo conclusions
Amanda: Which then proves my point that sometimes people need to close their eyes. Like, I believe this is much like net nanny or other things: the universe should be rated 'Adult', with a small 'Children' section, and adult should filter accordingly. The default setting of the universe is not 'Children' (HEAR ME AUSTRALIA?). So the responsibility of filtering should be on the part of the subject, a concept which I realise as I type sounds a lot like blaming the victim. And it would be IF SOMEONE WERE ACTUALLY BEING VICTIMISED. Sometimes we perceive victims where there are none.
LASTLY, PROOF THAT WRITING IS AN INTUITION OF HUMAN BEHAVIOUR—
Carolyn: I laughed at this: "Hold on, I have to pay for this stuff." PEGGED! I am ALWAYS telling him to hold on, and he hates it. :) Did he tell you?
Amanda: OMG I HAD NO IDEA ABOUT THAT. HAAHAHAHAH There's an old adage about a monkey at a typewriter eventually coming to Shakespeare, right?
Jeffrey Jones: ...Well. There you have it.
*Emperoresque flounce*
