amand_r: (amandr's angry)
[personal profile] amand_r
[livejournal.com profile] cereta is talking about rape and men over in a post, and I read a bunch of the stories about times in which posters could have been hurt by men and weren't, etc. More importantly, it deals with the whole "cookie" aspect of being surprised when men do things that they should do, like take care of a drunk girl without molesting her, and how we seem to treat that as some sort of special behavior when in fact that should be the lowest common denominator of behavior. Blah, she says it better. It's a good post, and this doesn't fit over there, but I wanted to mention it in my own LJ.



I was a high school teacher, and so I got to see a great deal of things that I found intrinsically disturbing that had nothing to do with teaching. Girls walking about with DANCER or JUICY written on their asses, for one. Also, boys with that huge underwear gap. No one wants to see that, peoples. But that is neither here nor there, because I want to tell you about the most disturbing thing I ever saw (and keep in mind that I saw plenty of fights, and heard about plenty of domestic abuse, though I never saw any of that. I also gave a student detention for complaining that he didn't like the movie 1984 because Julia "didn't trim the bush."): boys who grabbed girls in the crotch from behind.

Look people, we're talking fourteen/fifteen year old boys. I don't care about the fact that these kids are probably having sex. Go at it, have all the fun you want (with condoms! Please!) And I know that bra snapping has been going on for ages, and Jesus, does that alone piss me off, but THE CROTCH IS NEVER TO BE TOUCHED. They'd be sitting there in class, and a girl would walk down the aisle in her tight jeans (because fuck they're painted on), and he'd just lean out and grab in there while she passed him, and slide his hand along it. Sometimes he'd smack the ass.

And every time I saw this (aside from the freak out that I had? Loudly?), the girl's response was to jump, turn, and then either say something protesting that wasn't very protesting or smile in an embarrassed way. AN EMBARRASSED WAY. Or one of those smiles with a hand swat. You know, "quit it!"

I've had this happen to me once in my life, and it was not helpful or any better that it had been done to me by a gay male who was just trying to be funny (in some way it was, I guess, no wait, it wasn't. I was mortified.) I have also been smacked on the ass, and while that wasn't fun most of the time either, it wasn't like the sensation of someone's fingers ghosting over your nether regions through your pants.

I'm pissed enough that some fuckwad bastard thinks that it's permissible to grab another human being in the crotch, but when did we teach our girls that this was something that they should put up with? I'm not blaming the girls, here, so please don't think that I am.

People, if you have girls, tell them what I like to tell my kid: "Honey, if someone tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back." No wait, not that one. Oh yeah. "NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO TOUCH YOU ANYWHERE YOU DON'T WANT TO BE TOUCHED." And when someone does touch you, and you don't like it, YOU TELL THEM. You tell them a lot. LOUDLY if you have to. And if it doesn't stop, you find a way to make it stop, whether that's going to an adult, or the police or taking a bat and rochambeauing them or simply removing yourself from the situation. But you don't have to take it. YOU NEVER HAVE TO TAKE IT.

And if you have boys, you better talk to them about touching girls in school before the school calls you. Because believe me, they're learning that it's okay, even if you assume that they would be smarter than that. EVEN IF YOU SAY THAT THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN BECAUSE YOUR CHILD IS SWEETNESS AND LIGHT, TALK TO THEM ABOUT BODY RESPECT, because they ain't getting any positive reinforcement from anywhere else.

My god. If anyone ever grabbed my crotch without my express permission (or pre-set safe words!), they would taste my meaty mallet. Which, I have to add, is ironic, since throttling someone, no matter what they have done, is also a violation of another person's body. I know my own issues. And I'm not really a hitter. I just like to imagine it in my head. I'm more of a screamer. And then I pour milk in your car's ventilation system. ::shifty eyes::

I could probably have expressed that differently, and I think about it a lot (the violations that happened to girls in school), because I think it's one of those things where everyone has to be proactive. Girls have to stand up for themselves, and boys have to stop treating girls like their personal sex muppets. Teachers have to stop rolling their eyes and saying that this is what happens in schools. Even if it wasn't a sexual move, what it boils down to is that you have the right to exist in a public school unmolested and untouched. Whether that's sexual groping or hitting or even "teasing" of another nature, no one should lay a hand on a student without their permission. Anyway.

Date: 2009-06-18 01:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luscious-words.livejournal.com
That they believe it's acceptable to touch someone this way or to have to accept being touched this way is such a shame. *sigh* I feel so old because that wasn't done when I was in school.

Date: 2009-06-18 01:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com
Yeah, it wasn't done when I was in school, and that was less than 20 years ago. If it was done, then I never saw or experienced it.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] luscious-words.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:18 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:24 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amonitrate.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:25 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sinanju.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:39 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:42 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] luscious-words.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:27 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:32 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] luscious-words.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:36 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:41 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] luscious-words.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:45 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:47 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-06-18 01:17 am (UTC)
cyprinella: broken neon sign that reads "lies & fish" (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyprinella
I was seeing stuff like that in sixth grade (although they were probably eigth graders) in one school district and not at all in another after I moved. The second was a very rural school district. It had it's own fun and games.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:33 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kwanalicious.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:04 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:05 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] cyprinella - Date: 2009-06-18 03:44 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:47 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] darthhellokitty.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 05:14 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 05:16 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-06-18 01:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] blue-fjords.livejournal.com
because I think it's one of those things where everyone has to be proactive. Girls have to stand up for themselves, and boys have to stop treating girls like their personal sex muppets. Teachers have to stop rolling their eyes and saying that this is what happens in schools.

Massive Word. Complacency is tacit agreement. *Everyone* deserves some fucking respect.

On a side note, my friend, who just had a baby girl, was given a packet of girl-baby bibs by someone. A few of the sayings on the bibs? "Li'l Flirt," "Girly Girl" and "Hottie." Needless to say, she's not using those. She gave them to me to make protest art w/, if I ever come up w/ a use for them.

Date: 2009-06-18 01:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com
THAT SHIT DRIVES ME FUCKING CRAZY.

I hate those bibs that stereotype gender. Okay, every once in a while I run across a funny one, like a pink shirt that says something like, "someday I'll demand a pony." Come on. That's pretty funny.

But this sexualization of children? Oh, people, let's recognize that children are not innocent of sensual pleasures without slotting them into sexuality itself in such a manner. Jesus.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] blue-fjords.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:54 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 02:14 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kwanalicious.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:05 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:06 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] blue-fjords.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 04:29 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-06-18 01:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luscious-words.livejournal.com
Hence, the reason I always wanted to buy quote-unquote boy stuff for girls and quote-unquote girl stuff for boys. My preference is non-gender specific stuff that every child can enjoy.

If you come up with that protest art, I would love to see it.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] blue-fjords.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 04:32 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-06-18 01:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bethcarielle.livejournal.com
I hate that shit. My nieces are two and three. The clothes out there for toddlers? The baby hooker-wear? It makes me want to scream and thrash and vomit.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:45 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] bethcarielle.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:50 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:51 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] bethcarielle.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:59 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 02:15 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] blue-fjords.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 04:34 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-06-18 02:26 am (UTC)
ext_1843: (frog)
From: [identity profile] cereta.livejournal.com
I have spent the last two years trying not the vomit over some of the things people want me to put on my daughter.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 02:27 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] cereta.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 02:29 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 02:32 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] cereta.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 02:36 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 02:38 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] darthhellokitty.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 05:24 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] blue-fjords.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 04:36 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 04:37 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-06-18 02:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sanginmychains.livejournal.com
Those things make me INSANE. Also, anyone who refers to a baby "flirting." Creeeeeepy. And I say so to anyone who uses the word.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] blue-fjords.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 05:05 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sanginmychains.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:34 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:38 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sanginmychains.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:42 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 04:12 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-06-18 01:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amonitrate.livejournal.com
God, that is horrible. I had no idea - guys weren't doing that when I was in high school, which granted was awhile ago. Holy crap. If someone did that I think I'd start screaming. That... is basically assault, in my book. No, not even basically. It's assault.

And I think this is exactly what that post by cereta was about.

Date: 2009-06-18 01:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com
You and I are the same age, and yeah, I don't remember it. I heard some amazing stories about these kids and why they were up to when I was in the halls and bathrooms, and I must have been a nerd or something, because I don't remember doing ANY of it. But then again, I was too busy cutting myself and reading Sharon Olds to notice.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amonitrate.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:31 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-06-18 01:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amonitrate.livejournal.com
also, man, that post was only on 13 pages of comments when I read through it! It's kind of amazing.

Date: 2009-06-18 01:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com
It really is. It reminds me of those cookies that someone made. Remember those?

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amonitrate.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:33 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-06-18 01:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] paragraphs.livejournal.com
I have a son, I have a daughter. Ever since they were little, they knew how I felt about these things, as well as about respect. More than once they heard the 'you will never EVER EVER treat me like I am an idiot, stupid, know nothing, or with disrespect or I WILL SMACK YOUR HINEY FROM HERE TO BEYOND!' I was hard-core, and it has paid off. More than once I've pointed out such unacceptable behavior and said 'see that? that SO will not happen on my watch, you SO will never do that. and if you do? I'll find out. MOM KNOWS ALL!' Sure they'd laugh, but they learned too.

My kids' high school chose to go hard-core a few years ago. Uniforms, color-coded lanyards, etc. The school had been so bad (despite fantastic teachers) that parents were yanking their kids out. They moved a new principal in and he was the one who changed it all. So many parents complained! But I tell you what, it worked.

I hope to heck that kind of touching didn't happen--okay just asked them both (son is a senior in high school, daughter now a junior in college) and they both said no way, and Tiff said she'd sock anyone who tried that with her. GOOD! I'd deck 'em myself!

Date: 2009-06-18 01:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com
My kids' high school chose to go hard-core a few years ago. Uniforms, color-coded lanyards, etc.

I love dress codes. 1. NO MORE UNDERWEAR OUTSIDE THE CLOTHES. 2. I don't have to stare at cleavage anymore. Srsly, you're 15, but you're in the front row and you're a D cup, and that's a scoop neck. WTF. How did your parents even let you out of the house?

Good for your kids! You done raised them right.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] paragraphs.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:38 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:42 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] paragraphs.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:46 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 01:50 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-06-18 01:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bethcarielle.livejournal.com
I'm still reading through comments at [livejournal.com profile] cereta's. The whole post has been incredible.

Re: your post about high school. I've been out of high school less than ten years and even I don't remember students assaulting one another that way. And I can't even comprehend. Consequences be damned, had someone done that to me in high school I probably would have broken their hand.

Date: 2009-06-18 01:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com
I know! This might be a localised thing, but I saw it at least three times in the years that I taught, and I'll tell you-- it shocked the hell out of me.

Cereta's post is amazing.

Date: 2009-06-18 01:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] reddwarfer.livejournal.com
I told my daughter that if anyone touched her (and she felt safe to), loudly protest (don't touch me!) and tell a teacher and me. If she didn't (if it was a dangerous situation) tell me and I'd fucking kill them. Maim them.

Her body is her body. She knows that even mum and dad don't have a right to touch her body.

Date: 2009-06-18 02:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com
Well, I think it's different. I hug my kid all the time. Some touches are different, and they're okay. But this kind of touching? I hate to say it, but it might happen in a different setting and she might like it (like, I would probably be less protesting if my husband touched me like that because that's part of the teasing that you do in marriages and intimate relationships), but school is not the place for it. Ever.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] reddwarfer.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 02:05 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 02:16 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] reddwarfer.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 02:18 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 02:19 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] reddwarfer.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 02:23 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jacquez.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 02:49 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] darthhellokitty.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 05:29 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sivatheminty.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 02:27 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-06-18 01:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kel-reiley.livejournal.com
i'm not sure i can read that other post (personal thing)
but if i ever saw shit like that in my highschool... actually, i don't know what i would've done - i didn't speak up much when i was younger

Date: 2009-06-18 02:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com
Yeah, and I think that's how it happens. I know I've seen things that I didn't speak up about.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kel-reiley.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:10 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:14 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-06-18 03:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kwanalicious.livejournal.com
Did you ever get that email that circulated several years ago (it might even be now) which was basically a list of things that women could do to seem unattractive to rapists? I didn't realize it when I was younger, but now holy shit. Instead of teaching girls that if these things aren't done then it's their fault, can people please teach boys that it's not okay to rape/molest/harass? ugh.

Date: 2009-06-18 03:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com
Yeah, that comes around, and I have heard the other argument as well, that we should be teaching men, blah blah. That said, if I have to vomit on myself to keep myself from getting raped? I'm Linda fucking Blair, baby.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kwanalicious.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:32 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:34 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kwanalicious.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:49 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 03:51 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-06-18 05:54 am (UTC)
ext_47419: (Default)
From: [identity profile] cruentum.livejournal.com
I got thoughts but no clue how to word it all. Policy of staying out of these discussion because yeah

Date: 2009-06-18 06:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com
Hey, no one is ever obligated here. It's all good.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] cruentum.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 09:24 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 02:29 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-06-18 08:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] verasteine.livejournal.com
My mind is still slightly boggling from the fact that this happens in your schools, because where I grew up, boys touching girls in their crotch while in school, particularly in view of teachers, would have meant police and social services involvement. And a guaranteed suspension for the boy.

But aside from that. You are right. I feel more and more that we are not teaching our children about sex and bodies as much as we should. Sure, we cover STDs and pregnancy and condoms, but we don't cover what to do when someone crosses a line. How to defend yourself (not just physically) and how to draw those lines. And we don't teach boys about respecting boundaries before they are set; intrinsic boundaries about every person's human body. So, yeah, word. Now I'm going to read that post you linked to.

Date: 2009-06-18 02:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com
Well, let me make myself clear: from what I read from posters above, and what I know from my own common sense, it's not like this is an epidemic or anything. But in the back of my mind, even though I saw it a few times, I think, those boys were just the outspoken or stupid ones who acted on an impulse that a lot of them do have and are simply smart enough to restrain them. I heard and saw a lot of other behaviors that support my theory but weren't nearly as "bad". This one just struck me, because of the slimy nature of it.

Yeah, I think the problem is that we can never agree on who should be teaching those things (I think we all should, through personal example, but that ain't ever gonna happen, and really, this should be a parental thing, from early on, but that ain't always gonna happen, either.) By the time they reach the age where I have them, I'm not sure if there's much I could do. I try, though.

You icon...is disarmingly sexy. ::stares::

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] verasteine.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 04:53 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 04:55 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] verasteine.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 08:09 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 08:14 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] verasteine.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 08:19 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 08:23 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] verasteine.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 08:26 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 08:27 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] verasteine.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-06-18 08:28 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-06-18 02:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neifile7.livejournal.com
Thanks for linking to cereta's post, and for adding your two valuable cents here.

I'm still chewing this over (comments well worth plowing through over there, but will take a long time) and think I may make a related post about writing, in which in case I'll want to link to this one -- that okay?

Date: 2009-06-18 02:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com
Oh, geez, you can link to it, as long as you don't make fun of my poor writing skillz.

I haven't been serious about anything in my own LJ for so long that I'm surprised that there are this many comments. It's insane. That post over there is well worth looking at, though it makes me cranky. (I'm still having issues with the idea that we're surprised when a mass amount of the population does the least that should be expected of them.)

Okay, yeah.


Profile

amand_r: (Default)
amand_r

December 2020

S M T W T F S
  1 2345
6789101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
2728293031  

Most Popular Tags

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags
Page generated May. 23rd, 2026 01:46 am
Powered by Dreamwidth Studios